Minions: the Following (an expansion to Minion rules)

[justinsane]

As the current ruleset for minions is somewhat lacking, and there isn't already some homebrew to alleviate that issue, I've decided to take a stab at it. That said, consider this a very rough draft, that I'll be updating when time permits.

Design goals:
- Must be simple to run. This is the good part of the current rules, so let's not screw that up.
- Should be able to represent single creatures as well as full squads (animal companions need some love).
- Should be able to represent wildly different minions (a ninja deathsquad should have different stats than an army of elite accountants).
- If at all possible, adjust the Followers background so that players can customize their character's posse.
- If at all possible, make this mess compatible with the Crew rules for spelljammers.


STATS
Minion Squads have 3 base statistics: Size, Threat, and Level.
Size (from 1 to 6) is the number of Minions in the current Squad. *It also influences how many specializations the Squad gets, which I'll specify some other time.
Threat (from 1 to 5) represents their general competence and ability.
Finally, Level (from 1 to 5) is the squad's level of expertise in their field of specialization.

For most actions, Minions roll and keep their Threat, +1k0 for each Minion participating in said action.
If an action falls within a Squad's specialty, roll Threat+Level and keep the highest of those two stats. Add +1k0 for each Minion taking part in said action.

[GuardianTempest]

What I remember for Minion Rule tweaks username used a long time ago:

- You can have more than 6 minions per squad, useful for representing zombie hordes that get really weak as you cut them down (username used a squad of 100 zombies with a threat rating of 1)
- Minion squads have an additional +2k2 per roll to represent elite mooks
- Minions have their equivalent of Resilience and must be dealt damage rolls to represent tough mooks

Choose one, don't combine them as they're meant for different things

---

Additional rules:

- When using Flamers, use the Threat Rating in place of Dexterity for determining the TN to avoid the attack
- When using thrown grenades, increase the Blast radius of their explosions by their Threat Rating (to represent distributing their bombs on a wider area)

[GuardianTempest]

Post merged with the above for ease of hotlinking

[justinsane]

FWIW, I've abandoned this idea - mostly because whatever I came up with failed step 1 on my design goals, but also because the game in question fizzled out.
As an alternative, I created a new Retainers background to represent minion squads under the PCs control, kept using Followers as written, and learned not to sweat the small stuff so much.

[GuardianTempest]

Hmm, I figured you could just draw from your followers directly. You just need a bit of finagling to recruit a portion of them for active duty. Plus, Followers could also help you with out-of-combat stuff like maintenance.

What's the differences with Retainers so far? What are their amounts per dot?

[justinsane]

Retainer 1 gives you a Minion squad with Size 1 and Threat 1. Additional points increase either Size or Threat, player's choice, and there's no upper cap on dots spent (so a Threat 5 Size 6 Minion squad would be Retainers 10). Casualties can be replenished with Followers, Backing, Wealth, or whatever else makes sense in context. If a player tries to argue they can get a Threat 8 Minion, they'll get the book thrown at their head.

Retainers are actual supporting cast - not quite as powerful and independent as Allies, but not background extras like Followers, either.

[GuardianTempest]

I see. Maxing out Retainers seems too XP intensive for so little gain (takes up all of your starting XP plus a hindrance), and also breaks the mold of the established system for background dots. How is Damage Rating determined?

As for me, I think it's better to draw from Followers directly. The followers aren't exactly background extras in my opinion (the phrase implies they're useless), they're more like mundane help. Followers 4 gives you 1000 and, unless you get hit with a nuke or you lost your spelljammer, they're not getting wiped out anytime soon. There's still a lot you can do with all that manpower, and nothing's stopping you from bringing a few platoons with you in a dungeon aside from architechture.

Going by dnd definitions of what a retainer does, Followers can also accompany you into dungeons and carry your loot. Maybe provide some light combat support (You're Exalted, they can't keep up).

[justinsane]

Aug 27, 2022 2:28:15 GMT -6 GuardianTempest said:

How is Damage Rating determined?

Eyeball it based on provided gear. Wealth and/or Backing dots (depending on how that group came to be) is a good starting point.

The followers aren't exactly background extras in my opinion (the phrase implies they're useless), they're more like mundane help.

Agree here, they just can't keep up with the shenanigans PCs are usually up to. They're "background extras" in the same way Wealth is "background money" (which makes Retainers a rough equivalent to Holdings, in this analogy).

[chippo]

Speaking from my perspective, this just frankly offers too little payoff for the resources invested. I mean, if I go to 5 dots, I’m presented only two realistic options: Size 4 Threat 2 or Size 3 Threat 3 (or Size 5 Threat 1 if you really want to). That’s one squad with an average roll of ~17-18 for anywhere from 200-350 of your 600 starting xp. I could put that towards Wealth to acquire expensive items later on, Inheritance to start with either a lot of items or a few powerful ones, or even Holdings for a vehicle or a flipping spaceship. And, yes, explosions can always come around and surprise you with a crazy high result, even at a minimal 1 dot investment, but that’s begging for a miracle. Considering both how easy it is to clear out minions if you have a couple levels and 3+ dots in the relevant combat skill, and how low the odds are for that kind of compound explosion.

[GuardianTempest]

I shouldn't have spent so much time playing an Advance Wars romhack, now it's late at night.

Well, he did say you could replenish it with other backgrounds and you can buy more than 5 dots in that for the full experience but I agree. It's just one squad. They're not even that good unless you spend ALL of your starting XP, and then you need another background to sustain them. Can't pick followers because RAW they too have upkeep (Wealth/Backing/non-vehicle Holdings). End result is that instead of having 10-20-100-1000-10k minions, you just have 1-6 folks that seem like unexalted allies but need as much investment as the aforementioned army.

Aug 27, 2022 4:57:33 GMT -6 justinsane said:

Agree here, they just can't keep up with the shenanigans PCs are usually up to. They're "background extras" in the same way Wealth is "background money" (which makes Retainers a rough equivalent to Holdings, in this analogy).

I think you misunderstood. They can't keep up 1:1, yes, but I disagree with the notion that Followers are "background extras". Just because they don't share the same stats as an exalt doesn't mean they can't be on the same stage as them and play an active role. They can still contribute directly, even in combat. Besides, the effects of Holdings vs Wealth are good in their own ways, but Wealth is also your active purchasing power. To buy stuff on demand. On the other hand there's a big disparity between Followers and Retainers. Unlike Holdings, having Retainer dots does so little in narrative scale that it's almost entirely a game mechanics construct. What does Retainers have that Followers can't already do? Obtain minion squads? Join me in dungeons? Do my laundry? You can already do that with Followers anyway. For me, Followers ARE Retainers. I don't need a separate subsystem when I could just go "Oi, I need twenty of you to walk with me for a field trip" in narrative time/downtime. Besides, one can do some clever things with the Just as Planned feat and 100 loyalists.

DtD is deliberately abstract enough to let you fill in the gaps, just look at how much the Crafts and Tech-Use skill covers. There's leeway for player input to fluff their assets and worldbuilding. Followers are faceless mooks if you want them to, but you could also make them all animated mannequins, excessively-posh orks, clones of the exact same pink-haired anime girl (kekahi mau pipi), or remnants of a village that look up to you as their savior. You can even define them as how (I think) you would a Retainer minion, with whatever personality and lore you want to designate. I speculate you have a StoryMaster who either wouldn't allow something unless there is hard crunch backing it up, or in the "don't let your players bring an army to the dungeon" school of thought so you have to make do with a SINGLE minion squad.

In a campaign, I remember another player drawing from his Followers to bring a few minion squads as reinforcements against a pack of werewolves. I think, it's been years. I don't see what's stopping you from doing the same thing aside from SM interference.

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chippo what do you think about these add-on rules?

Aug 9, 2021 0:09:53 GMT -6 GuardianTempest said:

What I remember for Minion Rule tweaks username used a long time ago:

- You can have more than 6 minions per squad, useful for representing zombie hordes that get really weak as you cut them down (username used a squad of 100 zombies with a threat rating of 1)
- Minion squads have an additional +2k2 per roll to represent elite mooks
- Minions have their equivalent of Resilience and must be dealt damage rolls to represent tough mooks

Choose one, don't combine them as they're meant for different things

Nov 18, 2021 3:54:18 GMT -6 GuardianTempest said:

Additional rules:

- When using Flamers, use the Threat Rating in place of Dexterity for determining the TN to avoid the attack
- When using thrown grenades, increase the Blast radius of their explosions by their Threat Rating (to represent distributing their bombs on a wider area)

Hmm, I haven't defined subrule #3, so placeholder specification is Resilience equal to 1 plus half of Threat Rating (round up), and each "Hit Point" lost is a single minion lost.

[chippo]

GuardianTempest said:

chippo what do you think about these add-on rules?

Having been in one of his games, I’ve seen at least some of them in play and I thought they were great twists on minions. It felt awesome when I had Eneza fly into a swarm of daemons and start wiping them out in droves with her bare hands. It really helped sell the power fantasy of DtD, both in slaughtering tens of mooks at a time, musou style, and in facing odds that were only take-able due to being a powerful exalt.

I feel as if the option of having player minions could also help give a similar feeling, fighting alongside a band of subordinates who might not equal up to you, the exalt, but provide valuable assistance nonetheless. But these minions need to have some level of competency or resiliency to not continually eat shit in every encounter, without upstaging the player.

[GuardianTempest]

justinsane Okay, I've been hit with an idea. The general idea is to Minion-ify some of the combat actions players can take. This is just an initial concept draft.

Barricade (Full Defense)
The minion squad imposes a number of checks on all attack rolls equal to their Threat Rating, including their own, until their next turn.

Banzai Charge (All-Out Attack)
The minion squad makes a melee attack with +1 to their Threat and Damage ratings, but attacks made against them get a free raise to hit.

[justinsane]

I've been straight-up giving them the Lair Actions from that other thread, and some unique abilities every now and then (Brimstone Horrors detonate for grenade damage when killed/near a target, Nurglings recover their numbers when other stuff dies near them, etc). Makes some simple, fun encounters.