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Post by username on Nov 18, 2020 23:38:02 GMT -6
Frequent Flyer follows a simple philosophy: Life is in many ways defined by movement. Things that are alive move, and things that don't move don't live very long. The freedom of movement expressed by the maneuvers of Frequent Flyer make it a favorite of Anarchists, Chaotics and Kids everywhere. It then comes as a surprise that Frequent Flyer was developed by operatives of Blessed Order, Sigmarites who used it to root out Chaos and instill order as efficiently and effectively as possible. Frequent Flyer is all about free and fast movements while firing fast bullets or faster lasers freely as fast as possible. To that end, skill in Acrobatics and fully automatic propulsion capable weapons are key to the techniques employed by the Kata to separate the Quick and the Dead. A character entering the first level of any class progression that offers the Crisis Gun Kata can choose instead to gain access to the Frequent Flyer Gun Kata from that class. The inversion holds true as well, with classes with the Frequent Flyer style being able to substitute in Crisis Zone instead. This choice applies only when entering the first level of a class, and applies to all levels in that class's progression afterward. Level 1: Apprentice-Burst of Speed: When you choose to move during a Full Auto Burst, you may move an additional distance in meters by up to the number of raises you get on the attack, to a maximum of the attack's RoF. -Action (Full Auto Burst): Use Full Auto Burst actions with Trick Shots. Level 2: Initiate(-1)Click click BOOM BOOM: This attack gains the Knockback property. (2)Jet Set: This attack gains the Propulsion property. Level 3: Journeyman(-1)Skill (Acrobatics): As part of this attack, make an Acrobatics test against the Static Defense of the target. If it fails, the attack fails. (3)Fly By Night: If you move as part of this attack or after it, you do not provoke opportunity attacks. Level 4: Master-Move and Shoot: You gain +2k1 to the attack roll if you choose to move during a Full Auto Burst action. This does not remove the -1k0 you take for choosing you move during a Full Auto Burst action. (2)Wavedash: You may teleport 5m either right before or right after making this attack. Level 5: Grandmaster(2)Genocide Gait: As part of this attack, everyone within 2m of you takes 2k2 E damage. If you move during this attack, this affects everyone that you come within 2 meters of. A target can only be affected by this effect once per round. |
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Post by username on Nov 18, 2020 23:39:13 GMT -6
A strange mood overtook me today and I was thinking about a few different possible new gun kata, this being one of them. I decided to write up this gun kata while thinking about propulsion weapons and some the advantages present for sword schools. It's been a while since I wrote up things so if I accidentally duplicated an existing Gun Kata advantage or restriction please feel free to let me know so I can correct it. Now time for my traditional explanation and review.
Propulsion weapons let you move if you make a full round action with the attack or movement keywords; originally it was placed on a melee weapon but the way the property was phrased actually allows it to be applied to ranged weapons as well and now there are lots of ranged weapons that have it. The kata uses Full Auto Burst, as a Full Round action that actually has both the attack and movement keywords so is normally sure to trigger Propulsion, unless you have a way of doing it as a half action such as auto-stabilized or mithril promethean asset.
Burst Of Speed is the initial bonus. I considered whether this was overpowered since the distance you can move can get quite high, but that requires specific weapons (11 meters max in core with 11 raises). Allowing it at rank 1 means you'll likely not get that much extra movement early on, especially since you'll be taking a -1k0 to the attack rather the normal +2k1. You grow into the extra distance as you get more accurate and I love things that do that. Normally the move is based on Dex but this one isn't, so it is especially handy for people in low max-dex armor, like the Heavy class.
As an aside, I'm honestly not 100% certain when the shooting part of the Full Auto Burst occurs if you choose to move while doing it. Is it before moving, after, your choice of either or can you shoot during the movement whenever you want? It can get odd, especially when distance attack modifiers come into play. In this regard I tried to phrase it in a manner that indicates you'll be at the very least making your attack before determining the extra distance, although doing it this way may allow it to function as an extra move.
The 1st advantage and restrictions both deal with propulsion. The restriction only works with weapons that already have propulsion, encouraging their use and stopping it from making the advantage artificially cheaper. But if you have another weapon and you want to put Propulsion on it, the advantage will let you do that. Taken with moving from Full Auto Burst, you could move, attack and move again, or just move a shockingly long distance while still attacking. This somewhat mimics assassins strike, however it does not do anything about opportunity attacks and Full Auto Burst certainly still provokes. I believe the movement from propulsion does as well, but I could actually be wrong there.
Acrobatics is the skill for it. It's a common one I bet, but it can actually be tricky here if you want to use heavy armor while using the kata to still allow proper movement. That max dex will make acrobatics tough. Fly By Night is literally identical to Knight's Movement Concentration from White Raven, just in Gun Kata form. It helps to make it so you're not provoking with the full auto burst or movements and seems like a natural fit. It may be too useful in context though and thus may need a style point increase. I don't like the phrasing of the effects, but I copied it directly from Knight's Movement Concentration to keep it closest to the core game options. Similarly, Wavedash is identical to Desert Wind's excellent Leaping Flame. With FAB's (Full Auto Burst's) movement, Propulsion and now this Teleportation, your movement options are actually getting somewhat excessive. It's hard to imagine a situation where you'd want to spend the xp to have them all on one attack outside of a Stupid Exalt Trick. Once again it's copied directly from Leaping Flame, and in doing so I note it specifies 5m, not up to 5m. This is less of an issue for a gun kata than a sword school since it's a ranged attack anyway, but I may increase the price somewhat to 2, it's really somewhat undercosted anyway.
Move and Shoot goes a long way toward eliminating the downsides of moving while doing a FoB. It doesn't do it entirely, but you end up with a +1k1 total while doing so which is still very good. Originally it removed the penalty entirely, but looking over GuardianTempest's gunrunner I see if removes the -1k0 penalty for moving with FAB. With that in mind if you have both you'll get a full +2k1 bonus for moving FAB
For And They Run, the capstone... I am uncertain. I think it's very nice, but it can be quite brutal if you're fighting a melee character since they end up not being able to run away or close ground properly. There are some work around via trickery (going behind a corner and luring the Gunslinger in for example) or magic with Teleportation, it's still a tricky prospect. Teaming up works well of course. This wasn't the original Capstone I had in mind; originally I had intended to copy Desert Wind's Holocaust Cloak since it would be very functional here (more functional in fact than it is in Desert Wind) but I forgot about doing so and ended up making this new one instead. As always, Feedback is appreciated. |
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Post by GuardianTempest on Nov 18, 2020 23:50:35 GMT -6
1. WHY
2. Gravity Ski does this with less thematic jank. This feels like it was made solely to exist.
3. "and now there are lots of ranged weapons that have it" that was your fault, it makes me want to retcon the property to be melee only.
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Post by username on Nov 19, 2020 0:47:59 GMT -6
1. WHY 2. Gravity Ski does this with less thematic jank. This feels like it was made solely to exist. 3. "and now there are lots of ranged weapons that have it" that was your fault, it makes me want to retcon the property to be melee only. 1. Why not? I don't 100% remember what triggered the idea. I strange mood came over me like in Dorf fortress and I had to get my ideas down. I suppose part of it was remembering all the propulsion weapons I made and the other part came from the realization that many Sword School advantages translate nicely into Gun Kata advantages as well, and there are some that I don't believe have had it happen yet. The ones selected tie pretty well to the theme and mechanics of allowing free movement and heavy firepower I think.
2. This one about Gravity Ski I would disagree with strongly. Gravity Ski is specially all about the Run action and many of its advantages only work on or with Run action and modify how it works in somewhat odd or complex ways. Frequent Flier (should be Flyer, I'll update that) is primarily about Full Auto Burst and specifically moving while doing a Full Auto Burst rather than standing still. I had not seen much in the way of gun kata that address or modify that function directly, though I may be forgetting some as it has unfortunately been a while. Additionally, Frequent Flyer's advantages are more open ended and applicable than Gravity Ski's. They work very well on Full Auto Burst, but can be applied on many others as well. Propulsion works on Called Shot or Multiple Attack actions too for instance and while you'd need another Kata to access that it is a definite possibility. Most of them are good in many situations and functions. A standard attack with Fly by Night is good since then you can move instead of shift. I copied the phrasing directly from Knight's Move concentration and would like to believe it means the moving doesn't provoke and it doesn't mean other actions wouldn't either such as spellcasting. To be honest, I actually don't care much for Gravity Ski and always felt it was mechanically janky. It's rather specific to the extent many of the advantages seem more like abilities or feats than proper advantages. The only overlap I see is that both use the Acrobatics restriction. The hardest part for me can sometimes be coming up with names for the entries, but I thought they turned out pretty well. I think the central theme of allowing movement and attacking is pretty clear and translates into the mechanics as well.
3. Aw, but it's so cool how it worked that way and everyone still likes the Jet Sword too. I always am keen on seeing how different pieces fit together to create something more than the sum of their parts. Sometimes something isn't intended but is able to be done and opens up exciting new options and opportunities. Much like this school itself, my slew of propulsion weapons came about due a strange mood I had. First I noticed the possibility mechanically. Then I started stating a few out. Then I looked to try and stat some for weapon types that had less homebrew weapons made. Then I eventually decided I'd just make at least one for every weapon category (to which I somewhat failed as I forgot primitive or throwing options). I won't deny that the propulsion property always worried me a little bit, since it messes with the action economy by movement before or after a full round attack. But at the same time it has a special place in my heart due to the weapons made and the nifty things it allows with both melee or ranged.
Are you worried about this in conjunction with your Gunrunner class? I think they work well together without any danger of obsoleting each other and I don't believe they work "too" well with each other directly at this time.
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Post by GuardianTempest on Oct 4, 2021 8:37:55 GMT -6
Okay I'm extra upset because a random shutdown deleted an earlier draft of my reply and I didn't save it in my clipboard manager (again, because I didn't know it would happen now at all times). This post would've been a lot more polite and verbose had it not been for that.
No, actually, but I was miffed because the concept seemed rather...roughshod, like it was made solely so it could be done (similar to Ravenous Opossum solely for a Sword School with Stand as its class action). Or rather, because I thought it was made for your Propulsion guns as an extension of a joke in the vein of a Mary Sue exaltation class with Dark Edge. And if it really was then the fluff not using recoil as the source of movement was a missed opportunity, a ranged equivalent of Eternal Engine would've been neat.
Those items had tacky names and bare excuses for fluff in your quest for grid-filling. My take on Propulsion guns would be something like a dilapidated jet engine or an oversized potato gun, maybe even a nonlethal benign wind cannon. Basically something whose projectile is also the propellant. Alternatively it's stuff like a Daemonic bow that can move on its own and tug the user along, say it's possessed by...Malal's pinky toe or something. I would've posted them myself but lost my drafts and being startled from the computer shutdown made my forget half of my mental drafts at the time.
Anyway for actual suggestions:
- add hotlinks
- A drawback that gives the attack Knockback
- Wavedash should cost 2, it's free movement and you may even get a free Full Auto Burst that synergize with a lot of feats (compared to Daemon Trigger and Multiple Attacks)
- And They Run: Increase your Speed equal to the distance the target moves until the end of your next turn, this way you play billiards as his momentum fuels yours without locking him out of melee counterplay. If that's too much then just add the distance traveled to the amount you can move on your next movement action.
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Post by username on Oct 6, 2021 19:05:13 GMT -6
Okay I'm extra upset because a random shutdown deleted an earlier draft of my reply and I didn't save it in my clipboard manager (again, because I didn't know it would happen now at all times). This post would've been a lot more polite and verbose had it not been for that. No, actually, but I was miffed because the concept seemed rather...roughshod, like it was made solely so it could be done (similar to Ravenous Opossum solely for a Sword School with Stand as its class action). Or rather, because I thought it was made for your Propulsion guns as an extension of a joke in the vein of a Mary Sue exaltation class with Dark Edge. And if it really was then the fluff not using recoil as the source of movement was a missed opportunity, a ranged equivalent of Eternal Engine would've been neat. Those items had tacky names and bare excuses for fluff in your quest for grid-filling. My take on Propulsion guns would be something like a dilapidated jet engine or an oversized potato gun, maybe even a nonlethal benign wind cannon. Basically something whose projectile is also the propellant. Alternatively it's stuff like a Daemonic bow that can move on its own and tug the user along, say it's possessed by...Malal's pinky toe or something. I would've posted them myself but lost my drafts and being startled from the computer shutdown made my forget half of my mental drafts at the time. Anyway for actual suggestions: - add hotlinks - A drawback that gives the attack Knockback - Wavedash should cost 2, it's free movement and you may even get a free Full Auto Burst that synergize with a lot of feats (compared to Daemon Trigger and Multiple Attacks) - And They Run: Increase your Speed equal to the distance the target moves until the end of your next turn, this way you play billiards as his momentum fuels yours without locking him out of melee counterplay. If that's too much then just add the distance traveled to the amount you can move on your next movement action. Huh, I hadn't meant to offend by making those Propulsion weapons. When I see interesting mechanical functions or options I like to explore them. I admit I also worry about how powerful Propulsion is since action economy is king but after having made all those weapons anyway it is quite hypocritical to voice the concern. The interest in cool mechanics won out. As for the names and fluff, I thought I did a pretty good job with the guns and their fluff overall. When building them I, for the most part, was examining and building them as versions of existing weapons with Propulasion to make up for lower stats otherwise. I tried to give good explanations or hints at what was giving the Propulsion, ranging from bursts of fire, explosive revoil, built in engine, pneumatic pulses, with some of the more esoteric ones involving an uplink that sends electric impulses to the body or even that Syrneth weapon that causes space-time distortions. My naming sense isn't great, with most being clear references to the weapon they were modeled on though I do think the ones that aren't are quite nice. The two that probably could use some additional love are the Fire Freeballer (the name is heinous. Most that are built out of another gun make it obvious which is referenced but I could probably do better with the name) and the Bolting Bolter (the name could be improved although I do like the fluff reason for it, but the fluff would do better with an explanation of how it propulsion you). There was certainly some grid filling going on after a point when I was looking over the weapon flavors and noticed some needed more love, but I tried to make sure they were all useful or functional as well. I actually regret I didn't fill them enough: When building the guns I had only remembered Dual Wielding and Full Auto Burst, forgetting other multiple attack actions and even Called Shot! Big mistake really, if I did it again I doubt I'd give all but the recon revolver a RoF like I did. I'd also probably make a propulsion weapon for Throwing and Primitive... I might still do that. This school wasn't initially built around propulsion though it gained some focus on that before publish. I think I might have been thinking about the Propulsion weapons and realizing that when I had made them I had forgotten about Full Auto Burst's innate ability to let you move. The school was originally just more focused on this oft forgotten option to move while doing a full auto burst, which many people don't do because they don't want to give up the bonus. This means Full Auto Burst Builds often devolve into just standing still and full autoing every turn which is really boring to play, I've seen it. From there it developed into a general maneuverability full auto burst gun kata, especially when I noticed that several Sword School Advantages from book 1 translate smoothly into Gun Kata advantages. As for the suggestions - A drawback that gives the attack Knockback That's a good idea! I checked and I actually didn't see any gun kata that did that already. I had made it Propulsion to model off how some gun kata in the book favor Pistols or Heavy or things of that nature but Knockback is a great idea. I'm thinking -1. It's sad to make it a school less likely to be used with propulsion weapons but that works out since they don't get any benefit from the 1st advantage anyway. Now they can use Knockback and propulsion for extra battlefield finesse together: two of the propulsion guns actually already do that by design (the exotic ones, of course). - Wavedash should cost 2 I'm a bit more hesitant on this. Wavedash is 100% the same as Leaping Flame from Book 1's Desert Wind (Same cost, same wording, same place in the school). Leaping Flame is one of the best techniques in the entire game though and I do often make gun kata advantages a little bit more expensive than Sword school advantages since they were generally easier to pull off. I'll increase the cost to 2 but if people want to talk me back to it being 1 I'm open to hear it. - And They Run Yeah, this advantage was... not so good. I like it in theory but as I and you point out it is just way too powerful, especially in light of all the other powers this school gets to give movement options. Intially I had thought about it in the context of people not being able to escape but by the time I posted it and posted my initial breakdown I was also worrying about them not being able to reach you as well which is way worse. I think I'll cut And they Run entirely replace it with a remake of Holocaust Cloak as I had originally intended but forgotten. Holocaust cloak really... well, it sucks but since you can move around so much with this school it might still be of some use. As a capstone though, yeesh. I doubt I'd use it which is a real shame. Old versions, for reference: level 2: (-1)Gotta Go Fast: This attack may only be made with a weapon that innately has the Propulsion property. Level 5: (4)And They Run: When the target hit by this attack chooses to move before your next turn, you may move a distance equal to the distance they move. |
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Post by username on Oct 6, 2021 19:22:06 GMT -6
Alrighty, changes have been made.
I named the Holocaust Cloak port as Genocide Gait. I considered Genocide Ride but Alliteration won out over rhyming.
I did make it 2 points instead of 4 though like Holocaust cloak. I hope no one minds, it's just that I think Holocaust cloak is, well, garbage. It's not very strong at all even with all the movement options. 2k2 damage is very pitiful normally and even more so as a grandmaster advantage that doesn't ignore armor. With the movement you can likely use it to inflict 1 more hp damage on a few more people. If 2 points is too low I suppose I can raise it back if need be, but man is it trash at 4.
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Post by GuardianTempest on Oct 6, 2021 19:24:23 GMT -6
You're second to Asgore when it comes to naming schemes.
To be fair, with Leaping Flame you're expected to be within range of your opponents. Even if you're using thrown weapons you're not that far away. For guns you can hit your foes from across the field, teleporting from room to room as you shoot through different windows or something. Of course, none of the games I've seen actually had any gunfights from such distances. A smaller nerf for Wavedash would be limiting it to line of sight and/or preventing teleportation. Or just making it clear you're not teleporting: just instantly moving 5m like an actual dash.
As for And They Run replacement, how about increasing the amount of distance you can move equal to the ROF of your weapon when using Full Auto Burst? Maybe only if you're moving away from your target due to recoil.
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Post by username on Oct 6, 2021 19:37:59 GMT -6
You're second to Asgore when it comes to naming schemes. To be fair, with Leaping Flame you're expected to be within range of your opponents. Even if you're using thrown weapons you're not that far away. For guns you can hit your foes from across the field, teleporting from room to room as you shoot through different windows or something. Of course, none of the games I've seen actually had any gunfights from such distances. A smaller nerf for Wavedash would be limiting it to line of sight and/or preventing teleportation. Or just making it clear you're not teleporting: just instantly moving 5m like an actual dash. As for And They Run replacement, how about increasing the amount of distance you can move equal to the ROF of your weapon when using Full Auto Burst? Maybe only if you're moving away from your target due to recoil. Hey, Exxit, Igress and ACKS are awesome names.
In some ways the normal requirement of melee to be in melee makes Leaping Flame even better overall, because by letting you teleport in or out it ensures gives you way more options than you'd normally get. Wavedash on the other hand is still awesome but is less generally useful since most of the time 5 meters isn't that important one way or the other, especially if you're already moving although it can be handy with a heavy full auto burst weapon that can't be used in melee perhaps. The main benefit is the fact it is explicitly a teleportation and all the weird tricks that lets you do.
The entry bonus already gives you bonus movement based in part on the RoF of the gun anyway. Even without And They Run we're still getting plenty of movement options or expanded movement options from this progression already. You can move while full auto bursting (and move further due to the starting bonus), move via propulsion due to the full round action and Teleport. That's 3 different separate movements you get to make right there (not including sneaking in another via tactical Knockbacks). If that isn't enough for you then And They Run won't be enough without being too much.
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Post by GuardianTempest on Oct 6, 2021 20:03:57 GMT -6
Ah, forgot about the entry bonus. How about, I dunno,hitting whatever is between you and the target? Or something that incentivizes getting closer to the target, or maybe something like "Your Full Auto Bursts no longer provokes".
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Post by username on Oct 6, 2021 20:23:29 GMT -6
Ah, forgot about the entry bonus. How about, I dunno,hitting whatever is between you and the target? Or something that incentivizes getting closer to the target, or maybe something like "Your Full Auto Bursts no longer provokes". Fly by Night (a slightly more expensive Knight's Movement Concentration from White Raven) already does that. If you use it with the Full Auto Burst's movement (or with Propulsion's movement or both) then despite Full Auto Burst having the Provokes Keyword, it won't provoke. I'd worry about hitting multiple people with special attacks, and Genocide Gait can let you hurt people other than just the target a little bit. I think I'm good with Genocide Gait for the time being. It already incentivizes movement and being close to the target (at least at some point). I don't know if it is worth the minimum 600xp to unlock and use it but oh well. It serves the purpose of implementing sword school advantages as gun kata advantages that was one of the goals of the Kata.
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