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Post by Traskus on Jun 18, 2019 18:25:23 GMT -6
As a suggestion: don't limit the number of gadgets you can have prepared.
They cost xp to make like martial techniques and those aren't limited. It also takes out the budgeting of tech use dots. The worry of "everyone being Batman" isn't as big a deal as you might think. You're still limited by charges which is still more limiting than martial techniques get.
Quick question: can gadgets have multiple triggers? And if so how does that work?
To round this out, please edit the OP to clearly mark each keyword of this system (Gadget, Trigger, Function, Charge, Setup, etc.), making a gadget, and using a gadget.
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Post by berserkx33 on Jun 18, 2019 19:41:47 GMT -6
As a suggestion: don't limit the number of gadgets you can have prepared. They cost xp to make like martial techniques and those aren't limited. It also takes out the budgeting of tech use dots. The worry of "everyone being Batman" isn't as big a deal as you might think. You're still limited by charges which is still more limiting than martial techniques get. Quick question: can gadgets have multiple triggers? And if so how does that work? To round this out, please edit the OP to clearly mark each keyword of this system ( Gadget, Trigger, Function, Charge, Setup, etc.), making a gadget, and using a gadget. You are right, like, I was thinking of how it would be untannable to do all that, but like, we are already dealing with default "OP" characters, so that is pretty much a non-issue to be overprepared. I will take out the limit and will rewrite the OP to reflect the info we discussed. About the amount of Triggers, I designed them to only have one, and certain functions on certain fields will give you ways of chaining Gadgets activations. This is mostly to prevent people from pilling triggers on a single Gadget that gets more and more absurd as time goes on, triggering pretty much 50 times per turn after a single setup. |
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Post by berserkx33 on Jun 18, 2019 21:54:08 GMT -6
Boosting just to inform that I updated the OP and the terminology, now Triggers are called Commands to prevent mixing up with the preexisting term Trigger.
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Post by berserkx33 on Jun 21, 2019 22:30:41 GMT -6
Off-Road Customizers
 The Off-Road Customizers are specialized on one thing, and one thing only, their vehicles. The people who follow this field want to create new ways of making their vehicles cooler, making them more useful, more dangerous or just sleaker (Who am I kidding, it is always to make it sleaker). Who needs roads when you can drive up walls. Gadgets from this field are applied to Vehicles. Tier 1 - Amateur
1* Command: Step on the Gas This Gadget activates when you start movement with your vehicle. 2* Function: Easy Deploy, 5 Charges Choose an equipment of the "Other Ranged Weapons" type and equip it to this Gadget. It's Attack Roll will be based on your Tech Use instead of the equipment's relevant roll. Tier 2 - DIY
2* Function: Auto Jacks, 3 Charges When activated, this gadget will launch up in the air, jumping up to (Tech Use+Intelligence) Meters. Consider that any fall from up to that height is automatically safe. 1* Function: Belt Tires, 3 Charges Anything this gadget is attached to will not be directly affected by the effects of terrain for 1 turn. Tier 3 - Enthusiast
2* Command: Step on the Break This Gadget activates when the vehicle ceases movement. 2* Function: Nitro, 3 Charges When activated, this Gadget will increase the movement speed of whatever it is attached to by 50%. Tier 4 - Experienced
1* Function: Deflector, 3 Charges When activated, this Gadget will give whatever it is attached to a shielding with the stats of a Carapace Tier Armor (AP 7) for 1 turn. 2* Function: Frogger, 5 Charges When activated, this Gadget will give whatever it is attached to the "Anfibian" trait, allowing it to work inside bodies of liquid matter or vacuum. Tier 5 - Expert
3* Function: High Speed Action, 2 Charges Drive actions get +0k2, when using Vehicle mounted Gadgets during the turn this was activated give them +1k0.
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Post by Traskus on Jun 23, 2019 12:59:06 GMT -6
Alright. I've been nice Traskus for the past few days. I've been informed I've been too nice, in fact. I always intended to do this, so get ready for serious Traskus. I won't ad hominem and I won't swear, but those are about the only promises I can make. Introduction Have you ever wanted a way to play the game while also not playing it? This makes no sense. This doesn't do that. Or at least not as presented. It's a prepare -> cause -> activate -> effect sequence. No one on this forum has ever posted their material fully formed from the head of Zeus, but when you're designing a new system you should at least have the framework ready before posting. This is an admission you have not done that.Overview
Using a gadget does not have an action type in this framework. I have not seen any functions with active effects list an action type. If they were all passive, you could get away with that. But some are active and therefore require some action type to set up. If they don't need one, you have to specify "This doesn't have an action type and happens instantaneously." And given some of the things you've pitched, that is far too powerful.
Until this is cleared up your system isn't getting far.
Setting up does not have an action type or time frame to accomplish. Give it one or more.
I know you said your invention point "budget" is unlimited so long as you meet the setup TN, but I do urge you to limit it to twice your engineering field level because you can roll pretty danged high at lower levels.
Sample Commands and Functions
1. What's the asterisk for? In sword schools and gun kata it means you can take it more than once to stack its effects. This does not do anything like that. I'm not going to list this concern for every time you list this because that's tedious, but do keep it in mind for them.
2. This does not have an action type despite being an active command.
What is the purpose of this? It just spends your charges faster and the "generic" command list does not list "this gadget activates when another gadget runs out of charges" as a possibility. If it's to use the gadget more than once per turn you need to communicate how many you can do.
If I understand this then it's flat-out broken. You can make an easy setup tn to prime a high-tier gadget. This is far too powerful and undermines the high-tn "cost" of powerful gadgets. See "setup."
I am led to believe negative values lower the tn of setup. None of your schools contain negative value modifiers unique to the school nor does this system communicate that negative values exist or what they do to gadgets on a macro level. You still have not communicated maximum gadget uses per turn, but this implies there can be more than one.
You're better off not having disadvantages if you aren't going to go all the way with them.
Not many gadgets have a roll. You're better off saying "this gadget's maximum charges are halved." The game rounds down by default so you can skip that part.
Too wordy. "You may only activate this gadget once every other turn" is better.
To round this stuff out, I didn't make those schools as a vindication of your idea. I made them to provide an example of what I understand the system to be and how it should work based upon how you presented it. The formatting, design philosophy, everything. If I didn't list an action type as part of a function, that's because I want it to use the "default" (assuming it exists). Moreover, your schools do not interact with established mechanics properly when they can. That makes things confusing on a rules level. I've gone over your schools and am proposing changes to make them better. Most aren't even balance fixes. Most are basic functionality fixes. I recommend listing the viable effect targets under level 1 as Equipment (thing) with a brief description to specify. As a suggestion, make crafts test a viable alternative to tech use in the vein of vehicles allowing multiple characteristics to drive. |
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Post by berserkx33 on Jun 23, 2019 14:00:59 GMT -6
Thanks, I will be working with that feedback and form a more complete concept and edit this (And the other thread's) text to reflect as I finalize it.
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Post by berserkx33 on Jun 23, 2019 16:09:17 GMT -6
Using a gadget does not have an action type in this framework. I have not seen any functions with active effects list an action type. If they were all passive, you could get away with that. But some are active and therefore require some action type to set up. If they don't need one, you have to specify "This doesn't have an action type and happens instantaneously." And given some of the things you've pitched, that is far too powerful. Until this is cleared up your system isn't getting far. Thinking about how to proceed with this one. My original plan was to make it a Command by Command basis, but you pointed something that might need some more time on the test chamber, as certain effects can be kind of a problem if combined with stuff that count as a Free Action or even Half Actions. What is the purpose of this? It just spends your charges faster and the "generic" command list does not list "this gadget activates when another gadget runs out of charges" as a possibility. If it's to use the gadget more than once per turn you need to communicate how many you can do. The original idea was to allow the player use the Gadget multiple times from a single activation, but considering the point you brought up about the Turret Defense Smith's Function, it might be prime to breaking the game. What do you think of changing it to a simple "This Gadget will deal it's effect Twice per activation, as long as you still have Charges left to activate it"? Also, yeah, I've removed the EZ-Setup, it is really broken. I wanted a way of making chain reactions, but it was extremely abusable the further in the crunch I got. I am led to believe negative values lower the tn of setup. None of your schools contain negative value modifiers unique to the school nor does this system communicate that negative values exist or what they do to gadgets on a macro level. You still have not communicated maximum gadget uses per turn, but this implies there can be more than one. I think I will have to rethink how the negatives work on this. Negative values don't lower the TN of the Setup, they count as any other Function, adding to the total Setup TN, mainly because it would completely break the math, as it would be abusable where you could be getting negative TNs on top refunding IPs. I will return to the drawing board and redistribute functions so each school will get some form of negative, this way they have a more balanced setup. It also has given me an idea to fix certain stuff later, thanks for confirming this. Not many gadgets have a roll. You're better off saying "this gadget's maximum charges are halved." The game rounds down by default so you can skip that part. Agreed, I will use that. Too wordy. "You may only activate this gadget once every other turn" is better. The idea is that it is different from Slow Charger, that has the Once a Turn effect, this one actually makes it Gadgets that can be activated more than once a turn have to spend turns in "Cooldown", so if a Gadget activated only once a turn, it will only be able to be used once every other turn, as it will have a turn of Cooldown, if it can be activated twice a turn, this Gadget will have to spend 2 turns resting in between activations, so on and so fort. I will think on how to improve the wording though. To round this stuff out, I didn't make those schools as a vindication of your idea. I made them to provide an example of what I understand the system to be and how it should work based upon how you presented it. The formatting, design philosophy, everything. If I didn't list an action type as part of a function, that's because I want it to use the "default" (assuming it exists). Moreover, your schools do not interact with established mechanics properly when they can. That makes things confusing on a rules level. I've gone over your schools and am proposing changes to make them better. Most aren't even balance fixes. Most are basic functionality fixes. I recommend listing the viable effect targets under level 1 as Equipment (thing) with a brief description to specify. As a suggestion, make crafts test a viable alternative to tech use in the vein of vehicles allowing multiple characteristics to drive. I will follow your example. Also, I think I will spend this week reworking everything to be more in line with the system in such a way that will work better with everything else. This was born from an old draft from a long time ago, and I have only recently returned to the system (since I have had a hard time finding groups to play on my schedule, so I was relearning the system as I was rewriting this). Thanks for the comprehension, I will be remaking everything I currently have before moving to new stuff, so I have a more complete basis to work out off. |
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Post by Traskus on Jun 23, 2019 16:58:58 GMT -6
You certainly took this a lot better than I worried you would.
I can see that working. Specific, but useful.
I was a bit hasty on the unique field negatives. They don't have to have them. But your explanation about how negatives don't reduce the TN confuses me. What does a negative get you then?
I see. My bad.
Sorry if I came off as a bit harsh. It's your system, just make sure it plays.
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Post by berserkx33 on Jun 23, 2019 17:44:49 GMT -6
You certainly took this a lot better than I worried you would. No problem, the support and the earnest way you did the feedback really helped me flesh this out a lot, and it is being pretty important at helping me work out what I want for this system. I was a bit hasty on the unique field negatives. They don't have to have them. But your explanation about how negatives don't reduce the TN confuses me. What does a negative get you then? They are just to reduce IP costs. This way you can make stronger gadgets early in the game at the cost of them being unreliable, since the main idea is that they are mostly quirks that the character is not smart enough to kick out of their invention, small defects and problems that prevent this invention from being as good as other inventions that do the same thing. It is mostly the logic of "OK, this thing is almost blowing up, but I don't think I can fix it more than that, let's just use it like that and pray for the best" in the fluff side of things. Like, the Original idea for a -3 was actually "Unstable Engine" where it could randomly blow up, but it was like too much of a gamble to be worth that price. I have a few more in mind, but I will have to crunch the numbers to make them closer to usable. Later, when you can buy more Invention Points, you can remove those negatives by paying their costs, this "fixing" the problems with your invention. Sorry if I came off as a bit harsh. It's your system, just make sure it plays. No need to be sorry, the feedback has been good and it is helping me a lot. Thanks for the help. |
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Post by GuardianTempest on Jun 23, 2019 19:36:05 GMT -6
I suggest getting more familiar with how the vanilla system flows in practice. Ever played a solo game? Or at least a handful of test sessions without your new system to get a feel for it. Granted, there are some things in the core rulebook that's broken (either in balance or playability) but it's still good to learn.
At some point I've memorized which pages on the PDF have which information. Not all of them, but I a few mental bookmarks (mainly on weapons).
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Post by berserkx33 on Jun 24, 2019 10:00:55 GMT -6
I suggest getting more familiar with how the vanilla system flows in practice. Ever played a solo game? Or at least a handful of test sessions without your new system to get a feel for it. Granted, there are some things in the core rulebook that's broken (either in balance or playability) but it's still good to learn. At some point I've memorized which pages on the PDF have which information. Not all of them, but I a few mental bookmarks (mainly on weapons). Yup, I really need to, I will make some scenarios trying to break the game with this to see what can be done to make them more functional. I've only played with the OG book and yet still I lack a lot of things on my mind. |
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